Jeff Short chats to Emma Ineson, the Bishop of Penrith, about her new book which offers a critical and biblical insight into concepts of ambition and 'success'.

Emma: That's right. I think there's a real issue for leaders with competitiveness, not least church leaders. Sometimes you can get into the game as a church leader of who's got the biggest church. This is a real encouragement to leaders to think who do we compare ourselves with? It's good to want church growth for the sake of the kingdom but it mustn't become something that our own inner soul gets so caught up in that we lose sight of what's important. So, I think you're right; it applies to a lot of different areas, not just politics.

Jeff: I read something the other day, that Neil Richardson, former president of the Methodist conference said. He spoke about the difference between church growth and evangelism as an aim for ministry. He said church growth was about stocking churches whereas evangelism was taking good news.

Emma: Absolutely, and I think we have to unpack what we mean by growth. Growth isn't just numbers; it can include numbers and we want to see more and more people coming to know Jesus, but we need to grow in so many ways - in holiness, in discipleship, in humility. Let's have a program for church growth in humility. That would be an interesting one.

Jeff: If we could put a measure on that it would be wonderful. I'm happy with what you're saying about power and success. Tell me about counting stuff.

Emma: Maths was never my strong point at school, I have to say, but I got quite caught up in the idea how do we measure things? What are we counting? It depends how we count things to what we look at. In the book I've got four good reasons for counting things and four bad reasons for counting things. I look at how things are counted in the bible, because obviously we know stories in the Old Testament where King David gets told off by God for counting his armies because he was showing a lack of trust in God's provision. Yet God counts all sorts of things.

One of the ways we know God is sovereign it says in Isaiah is that he has the ability to measure the things of the Earth and to count things. God quite often orders his people in the Old Testament to be counted but that's because he loves them and he wants to see them all as individuals. Again with counting I think it's our motivation for counting things that counts, to coin a phrase.

Jeff: Sometimes when we're comparing we think we are but we're not comparing apples with apples, we're comparing apples with pears. I'm a school governor and there's a school that's deemed as failing but they don't look to see where have these children come from, they've improved, they're going to be rounded citizens when they leave they just didn't reach the Ofsted target. I guess there may be something similar with churches. You don't have 400 people involved in communion or worship but actually there are a few people there whose lives have been significantly changed.

Emma: Absolutely. I'm a bishop in Cumbria, which is a very rural area so a lot of our churches are quite small. You don't see the crowds on a Sunday; they exist in small rural communities. And yet I've been so encouraged as I've gone round to see the small, faithful congregations that have been praying and being in a place for years and years and years. It's not all about the numbers. We do need to make sure we look with the right eyes and we look at the sort of things that God values. And you're right; it's the same in education, it's the same in business, it's the same in the arts. What is effective funding for this or the other thing? It might be the things that are least commercially viable that need some support because we value them.

Jeff: I really appreciate the book. It chimes with so many thoughts of mine. Where did your journey start? Where did it take you from and to?

Emma: I've been ordained in the ministry for twenty years. My husband is also an ordained parish priest so we've done a lot of our ministry together and shared parenting and work and ministry. We've got two children. I only moved to Cumbria six months ago, for the last twelve years I was in Bristol, responsible for a theological college, a college that trains vicars and people for all sorts of different ministries. Trinity College.

Jeff: I did an exchange there for a week. It was fabulous; I wanted to stay there and not go back to the Methodist College.

Emma: It was a super place to be, seeing so many young, passionate, ambitious people for the gospel was a real privilege. But God has called me on to new things and I really enjoy serving the people of Cumbria now.