Heather Bellamy spoke with Andy Flannagan, the director of Christians on the Left, about David Cameron's assertion that Britain is Christian

Andy Flannagan

David Cameron has recently sparked debate in Britain by saying we should be more confident about our status as a Christian country and more evangelical about our faith. Baroness Warsi, the Minister of faith and a Muslim, has declared that the Coalition is the most pro-faith government in the world. However, this has been disputed by a group of public figures, including Sir Terry Pratchett, who have challenged David Cameron saying he risks causing alienation as we are a largely non-religious society.

To discuss the concept of a Christian nation Heather Bellamy spoke with Andy Flannigan, the director of Christians on the Left.

Heather: With all the varied responses to David Cameron, do you think we've got a bit of an identity crisis at the moment as a nation, when it comes to faith?

Andy: I think you've got to welcome anything that brings the discussion of Christianity into the public square - I think we've got to start by saying that. It's great for folks to be talking about it and you want to say from the start that this shouldn't be controversial for somebody to be talking about it.

The critique coming from that letter from people like Sir Terry Pratchett, when you look at what they've said, about how folks make an equal contribution who aren't people of faith - some of that's really not held out by the statistics; the incredible contribution that Christians are making to the nation. You can see that there's a little bit of defensiveness creeping in there.

It's good that we've got this out in the open. I think the problem is causing so much controversy, because for me, the actual idea of a Christian country is maybe not the most helpful or even correct way to think about this. It's not two words that you put together in the first place. When you think about it, no matter how many Christians there are in your street, you wouldn't describe your street as a Christian street, or your village, or your town, or your city, as a Christian town or a Christian city; so it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to extrapolate that up to a Christian country. We've got to think what we actually mean by that. I think in talking about it in those terms, what you can do is to make everyone feel slightly relaxed, like: "It's okay, we're a Christian country, we're all good, hey, we all go to church every so often, it's all fine," and we don't actually then hold ourselves up to Christian standards and values. We don't analyse policies for example; we don't critique policies because, "It's okay, we're a Christian country". But we need to look at ourselves to see if we're acting Christianly ourselves, but we also need to challenge and critique the Government and be involved in government ourselves to fight for legislation that really reflects the values of the Kingdom. I think that's the thing that I'd like to see come out from this discussion rather than all this time spent discussing whether we are or whether we aren't a Christian country - does that really matter? The Bible's pretty clear that individuals can become Christians and not countries, not roundabouts, not washing machines; its individuals who become Christians and who are Christian, so I'm keen for the discussion not to lead us away from realising that truth.

Heather: When you're leading a nation you want to be trying to get a common sense of unity and a vision of who we are and where we're going - that we're not just a disparate group of people: we are a community as well. So, should a nation find ways to articulate common values that tie us under one banner, or do you think that should be done away with and that the only thing we are is that we're a nation that's under a coalition government and that's the only thing that describes us?

Andy: I think it's really important for folks to have a shared identity. I think the problem is as believers we believe that first and foremost our identity is in Christ and whenever national identities get put above that identity things go badly wrong - you hear me speaking with my Northern Irish accent! Just look at Ukraine or the Crimea at the moment. The example of Northern Ireland: you'll remember the problems last year when it was suggested that the Union Jack, the flag, should be flown less often at Belfast City Hall and some people reacted really viciously to that. No matter what you believe about that particular issue, you could see people's reactions were not rational: there was a visceral reaction and that's what happens when another identity comes in before our identity in Christ. We are designed as human beings and we're made in the image of God and we operate at our best in community when we are safe and secure in our identity in Christ.

Heather: If faith comes down to just individuals and not as a nation, should faith and politics mix? Because that's the other challenge that comes from the secularists: that actually faith shouldn't be mixed into politics: it shouldn't be in the public square at all.

Andy: I think there's a difference between saying that our identity as individuals has to be found in Christ and saying that faith and politics shouldn't mix. These are two totally different discussions. I think when people say to me, "Andy: religion and politics, they really shouldn't mix," and I say, "By politics do you mean stuff like healthcare and education and those sort of things?" and they go, "Absolutely," and I'll usually often cheekily say, "Well who was it who built the first schools in this country?" if you want to talk about education, or "Who was it who built the first hospitals in this country?" if you want to talk about healthcare - it was the Church. And so to artificially create this separation of what's faith-based, what's religious, and what is the rest of society: it just doesn't hold. And you see that from the way that the Church is engaged all across the UK in communities, sometimes the only thing left holding communities together. So the Church is very focused. If our identity's in Christ then we have the security to then go out and share and build community and create that sense of community cohesion and you see the Church doing that in places all over the country.

Heather: So you would think Christianity's shaping our nation a lot at the moment?

Andy: Yeah - absolutely. I see that happening in my own neighbourhood, I see that happening in many other parts of London. With doing my music and doing my job in politics I have the privilege of travelling quite a bit around the country and seeing the most incredible projects and programmes, whether you're talking about debt counselling, youth work, Street Pastors programmes, or food banks, you see the Church making an absolutely vital contribution. And actually in some parts of the country that have been, to be honest, forgotten by other people, you see the Church reaching out, making people feel like they're part of a bigger picture. It is Christians who have that individual faith, but who are reaching out and making people feel part of community.

Heather: As well as David Cameron saying we are a Christian country, the second point he was making was Christians should be more evangelical with their faith. Would you agree with that?

Andy: Absolutely. I think he's talking about a confidence, but I really want to hold David Cameron's coalition Government policies up to scrutiny. A lot of what is being done by that Government I want to critique and challenge - but in terms of the critique that was coming from that letter from folks who were critiquing him for even mentioning faith and saying that Britain was a Christian country, in the midst of that letter they were actually saying it is divisive to do this, but if you speak to some of the other faith groups, the Hindus and Muslims and the Sikhs, the folks that I speak to, they're very keen for Christians to be really confident and very on-the-front-foot about their faith. They are very aware that their ability to practise their faith is based on the pluralism that Christianity brings, the ability for everybody to come and have their place and everybody to have their space and they are more than happy. Quite often you get a lot of folks in local political contexts: quite often when a Christian is upfront about their faith it is very attractive to Muslims, who are very pleased to see somebody being very confident about their faith. So the critique that it's divisive is just a non-starter: it's coming from folks who are really quite disconnected, to be honest.

Heather: Finally, Andy, you've mentioned a couple of times about wanting to critique some of the Government's policies and one of the things that you seem to be quite passionate about, reading your press release, is about food banks. You struggle with the Government calling us a Christian nation while people are struggling with food poverty. Why is that a defining issue for you?

Andy: Because it's a fundamental thing. It's funny because people are seeing it in front of their eyes; it's not a theoretical thing. It's folks and churches around the country, getting in touch with us and saying, "We have never seen anything like this: we have never seen this level of need, we have never seen people this hungry and people, some of them are quite well educated, are coming to use these food banks: we cannot believe how much food we're having to give out". They're glad to be involved and they're glad to be being useful and they're glad to be serving, but they're also saying, "Hang on here, its 2014: should this be happening in a civilised country where there are so many people who have so much?" I think it's that gap, it's that inequality between the ridiculously rich and those who are really struggling, that makes people say, "This is not right". We don't need a political or economic degree to just say, "This is not right". Sadly I think the policies of the present Government are at times making that worse rather than better. It's not the churches that are suddenly wanting to score political points: they're just telling the story of what they're seeing in front of them.