Heather Bellamy spoke with pastor Anthony Clowes about the findings of Cabinet Office research about jobs that make people happy and the relationship between salary and satisfaction

Anthony Clowes

Cabinet Office research has looked at the relationship between different jobs and life satisfaction and the research suggests that church leaders are the happiest people of all in their vocation. The government have looked at this as part of the prime minister's commitment to find policies that boost the wellbeing of the nation.

To find out if the research is true, Heather Bellamy spoke with Anthony Clowes, the Lead Pastor at Potter's House in Stoke-on-Trent.

Heather: Apparently the Cabinet Office have done some research about what jobs make people happy and - this is a surprise - vicars and priests came out top. Does that surprise you?

Anthony: I was mightily encouraged when I read this report. There were 276 different kinds of working categories and the clergy: vicars, ministers, pastors: we came out number one. I'm one of the happiest people in Britain.

Heather: Now are you really one of the happiest people in Britain with your job, or just theoretically you should be?

Anthony: Well, I am in a great job. I feel it's an absolute privilege to be a church leader, I really do. I'm not so unrealistic to think that there's a job out there that's the perfect job; let's be honest about that. Some of us find a vocation, which is very fulfilling, as I have done. However, every working life has its ups and downs and that's my experience, but would I stop doing what I'm doing given the opportunity? I wouldn't. Would I do what I'm doing if I wasn't being paid to do it? Actually, I'd do it anyway. I do love it. I love being a church leader.

Heather: So what is it about being a church leader that you reckon makes it come out number one?

Anthony: There's probably some miserable church leaders out there, let's be honest about that. If you'd got the wrong person the report might have come out differently. But I'm guessing, those that were surveyed feel themselves to be very fulfilled within a vocation. What is it for me about being a church leader? It's a privilege to be invited into people's lives. As church leaders we are in that place on regular occasions, where through good times and difficult times alike, people invite us into their journey of life and their journey of faith and that's wonderful.

Heather: So it's basically being around other people in a positive sort of way?

Anthony: Yes, it's very much a people-centred job. I mean we work for an institution: the Church is an institution. I always describe myself as institutionally awkward, so I struggle with some aspects of institutionalism. I'm a people person first and foremost and I don't want the institution to get in the way of spending quality time with the people because church is people: not buildings, not institutions. So for me, absolutely, the fulfilling aspect of my life is that I get to spend lots of time with lots of different people from lots of different backgrounds and experiences and I learn and grow as I sit in their presence.

Heather: The research showed that there was also a link between earnings and life satisfaction - but some quite well-paid jobs are populated by those with low levels of wellbeing and vice versa. Obviously, most people would think money equals happiness, so what are your thoughts on why the truth appears to be different?

Anthony: Well, that's a good one, isn't it? I've certainly met some people that are very unhappy in their working lives but they are earning a lot of money. Vice versa I've probably met some people that are earning very little but they're very happy in their working life. So it doesn't seem to be that money is necessarily the factor which leads to ultimate satisfaction. I don't believe what people say sometimes that money doesn't make you happy. I don't believe that actually, because money can make us happy. What I don't think it does ultimately is bring fulfilment in life. I asked my children in the car on the way to school this morning, because I was going to be talking to you today, 'What kind of jobs make people happy?' My children are aged seven, nine and 12 and the answer surprised me. I was expecting train drivers or footballers or something like that, but actually what they said was, 'doctors'. My oldest daughter said 'ministers' so she obviously thinks her Dad's quite happy - that's great - and then my middle child said, 'Jobs in which people do something for somebody else'. So maybe there's more satisfaction in our working life when we feel like we're serving a real purpose and a need and we're helping people. Whereas, perhaps those who are earning lots of money for a job, a corporate job for example, but they're not seeing the face-to-face benefit of actually enabling and lifting other people up, maybe that's where satisfaction is lacking because we need to have that sense that we're doing something for others.

Heather: Interesting thoughts. The average farmer, going back to money, apparently earns £24,500 but they have the eighth highest life satisfaction of any job according to that survey. And apparently the outdoor life does seem to be associated with greater personal wellbeing, so do you think there's also something innate in us as well as helping other people that also needs something more than concrete cities and offices?

Anthony: I wasn't surprised to read that aspect of this report actually because I happen to be somebody who loves the great outdoors - and I really feel connected to the world around me and I feel alive spiritually when I'm in places of great beauty, when I'm in creation. So I get that and I think our farmers - I know that farming's had a rough deal of late and they're struggling in many aspects of their working environment and with all the European regulations around farming today - however, they spend their time in God's own country, don't they? That's got to be uplifting: I absolutely understand that. I'm also not surprised that some of the jobs that come out very low on satisfaction are those, for example, where people work in call centres. I've never worked in a call centre but I can imagine that could be hard going at times if you spend most of your life - because let's face it our working life is what we do most of the time: it's a big percentage of our life experience - and if much of that is within the same four walls I can imagine that could become quite claustrophobic at times. It wouldn't work for me.

Heather: And a bit soul-destroying because you spend most of your time with people saying 'No' to you rather than 'Yes'. You're not helping people, are you? Most people are a bit miffed if you get a sales call, aren't they?

Anthony: I guess so. I always feel a little bit sorry for those call centre staff. We all speak to them regularly, don't we? Because I'm guessing they take a lot of flak over the telephone. I don't know the statistics, but it wouldn't surprise me if people go in and out of call centre employment rapidly. I can't imagine people stick it for very long and there's certainly something about the environment, being in an office block all the time, wouldn't work for me. Perhaps it works for some.

Heather: Something else that I wanted to ask you: the Government thinks people should have access to this information on the relationship between salary, satisfaction and wellbeing, because that's why they've done the survey: it's all to do with the Prime Minister's commitment to find policies to boost the wellbeing of the nation. But with all that the Government has to do, do you think there really is value to this and it's a wise use of Government money and time to bother with a survey about wellbeing and job satisfaction?

Anthony: Well it's got us talking today, hasn't it?

Heather: That's true.

Anthony: Certainly when this came out a few weeks ago, I guess because I happen to be a member of the clergy and we came out number one, I saw an awful lot of stuff on social media, with people commenting on this. So, yes, many people find themselves at a crossroads in life when they're thinking about their future, they're thinking about the kind of jobs that they want to do. Some people have very little choice when it comes to that and I want to recognise that, because I'm privileged that I've found a career path that's life-giving, that I'm paid well enough to support my family: I'm in a privileged place. But there's a lot of people outside there in society today for whom finding any job would be fantastic, let's recognise that. But when it comes to that crossroads and finding a job - because we spend most of our lives doing our jobs - that's going to bring some fulfilment, I think that's really important, because to be unhappy at work is going to shadow the whole of our lives, because we spend so much time in that place. I've had four jobs since I left school - I worked for six months for a printing company - and I don't want to knock printing companies: 20 years ago it was a very different profession than it is today because of the whole digital printing side of things nowadays - but for six months I was really unhappy working in a factory: I was miserable. I remember Sunday nights feeling really down-in-the-dumps that it was work on a Monday and there are a lot of people for whom that is the case and my heart goes out to them. So I guess when it comes to that crossroad, absolutely, we're all looking to be happy, aren't we? And so finding a job that is life-giving: that's got to be key.