Paul Calvert hears Clive Urquhart's reflections on his time at Schindler's factory and Auschwitz-Birkenau

Clive: Yeah. I think because we've been to Israel, been to Yad Vashem and we've heard lots of stories, met Holocaust survivors, I think the impact of going to Auschwitz-Birkenau was maybe slightly different than if that was the first time we'd encountered anything like that. I think for us, my wife and I, the biggest impact was just how cold-blooded and systematic the whole thing was, in terms of trying to destroy the Jewish people and actually how pivotal that was as to what Hitler was doing in the Second World War. I think so often we just see it as Hitler was just trying to take nations, but actually, at the heart of all of that was to exterminate a people group and that was, I would say, one of the fundamental things going on during the war. I think that's the one thing that impacted us: how central that was to what Hitler was doing.

Paul: Why do you think there was so much hatred for the Jews?

Clive: I think, if we want to be spiritual, I think there's a demonic thing going on here and I think at that moment in history - God knew that Israel was going to become a state in 1948 and I believe that the Devil understood that as well and at the last minute, if you like, during the forties, the Devil wanted to try and wipe out the Jews thinking, "If we can get rid of the whole Jewish nation, the people, then Jesus can't return. God's plans can't be fulfilled and Jesus can't return. If I can annihilate the people group, then I completely thwart the purposes of God." I think God on his throne sat there and thought, "There's no way that whatever the enemy tries to do it's going to thwart my purposes; what I have decided is going to take place." I think that it's a spiritual issue, that the anti-Semitism - hatred for the Jews - isn't just a racist thing on a natural level: I believe it is quite a demonic thing that's gone on for centuries.

Paul: As a church you have a heart for Israel. Why are you focused on Israel?

Clive: My wife and I went a few years ago and God showed us while we were there on that initial visit that he's not on anybody's side that God's on his own side. Through his word, yes, he's called the Jewish people as a special people; he's got plans and purposes for the nation of Israel, but also God's got a plan of salvation for the nations and when you look in the New Testament it talks about the Jew and Gentile becoming one new man in Christ. That whether you're a Jew or a Gentile, to be in Christ you have to be born again and the only way of being born again is through Jesus. I think that what we realised was God is on his own side and he wants everybody to line up with his word and his will and his purpose and so for us it triggered a fresh understanding of God's purpose. While we were there it gave us a heart for Israel; a love for the nation, for the people, to pray for them; but also gave us a heart for the Palestinians and Arabs there, understanding that God loves both. He's got significant promises for both as well and we're not to take sides cos it's not a side's issue: it's whether we're lining up with God's will and God's purpose or not. I think that's where it started and we've just been on a bit of a journey to discover, "What does that look like? What does the Bible say?" and just to line up with the word rather than with people's perceptions, opinions or preferences.

Paul: What's your prayer, finally, for Holocaust survivors that are still around today?

Clive: Well firstly, if they don't know Jesus already, that they would come to know Jesus. I think for those that have not found any rest in their soul, those that are still tormented, to see them come out of that torment in their soul from what's happened in the past - but ultimately that happens when somebody comes into relationship with Jesus.