Dr D'Sousa: It's a mentality that comes from their own religious teaching; and it is the religious heads who oppose this the most.

Jonathan: Now obviously we are aware that another thing of great change taking place in India is it's position in the world economy. Increasingly India is very strong from a global perspective, is that putting any pressure on India to look at how it treats all members of it's society?

Dr D'Sousa: Oh it's putting a lot of pressure. Everybody knows we have now the modern middle class India of the two hundred million people. Economically powerful, economically able to muscle it's way in the world today. Part of the G20 the technology sending satellites and first rocket to the moon and everything else. So yes Indians are very proud of this new development etc; but the problem is that eighty percent who are not part of this and that this development has not happened in an executable way and that the low caste and the Dalits are completely out of this. And the movie, 'Slum Dog Millionaire' was about this. You know it acknowledges India's great, but it shows the story of the slum kids who live there and were being trafficked and were treated less than human beings. Their eyes are gorged, their amputated, and turned into beggars. The UN says there are twenty seven million modern slaves today in the world being bought and sold. The UN - this is the UN figure. Right. Out of that twenty seven million it goes on further to say, fifteen to twenty million of them are in India and Nepal and Pakistan where caste system goes. Sixty to seventy per cent of all slaves in the world today are Dalits. And that nobody knows. And that's 'Slum Dog Millionaire'. You know there are 1.2 million girl children sold into the sex trade right now in India.

Jonathan: Wow. Now you've been campaigning on behalf of the Dalit people for nearly twenty five years. Would you say that you feel the weight of public opinion is beginning to gather - like you are gathering in strength in terms of ability to challenge?

Dr D'Sousa: Yes in this campaign - the global campaign, we have found amazing partners. We have found parliamentarians all over the world including in your country, we have found media people, radio stations like yourself. We've had bands, we've had people from Hollywood getting involved in this and if you look especially at the last fifteen years, there is a tremendous increasing awareness in the world, and people are raising this issue in conversation with India. Today I think most people now know what the word Dalit means; it means broken, crushed. It's talking about a huge section of humanity in our world today. We're asking for freedom. Yes the campaign is increasingly succeeding. And especially the programme that was launched over ten years ago by Dalit Freedom Network. To free these children and bring them into centres and schools. This last February was the first graduation of these students coming out of our centres and schools. It was an incredible experience; with their own parents and everything. And every kid that is graduating was a potential slave kid.

Jonathan: But I understand - I mean it's great that they're going to school, but I understand that that's where a lot of people also get taken for the slave trade. Is that right?

Dr D'Sousa: Absolutely. There is recruiting going on within schools. The recruiting agents from Mumbai, from Delhi and wherever. They come into the schools and they talk to the teachers, they connive with the Government Administer - local school administration. Then kids are bought and sold and kidnapped. There are villagers in the state that I live in where you won't find a girl child above the age of five in those villages. Because these guys who buy and sell go to the parents and buy the child, as soon as a girl child is born they're there. They come and buy and then it's five, the girl child is five, the child disappears and they say, oh we're going to take care and educate it etc. But what happens is they're going to the sex market paedophilia and every form of abuse that one can think of.

Jonathan: What are the first things that you're asking your government to change? In terms of turning something like this around. There's an awful lot of issues; what are the first steps?

Dr D'Sousa: One of the first steps is to provide these kids a safe place where they can be built up, and opportunities can be given, education can be given, and a world view can be given, and where they're protected and cared and loved and shown that they are human beings. So that is one of the first things, first programmes that we have launched nationwide. So that's what we ask the government. The second thing is of course to not allow this thing to go on with impunity, but to enforce the law and to stop this racket of buying and selling of people. You cannot allow this to go on. You know just about six months ago, a girl walks into one of our clinics, and she's crying and she's about thirteen and a half. And one of our doctors says, your not here for sickness, there's something else; tell me what's going on. And the girl breaks down and says at the age of nine I was sold, and I live in a place where there are half a dozen of us; and when I was nine, ten, eleven they paraded me naked before men every night. Then they raped me, and now I'm being raped and abused every day. Help me, get me out of this. How does this happen and why does this happen. The laws are there, but nobody's implementing the law. So our call to the government, is work with us, we're happy to work with you, but let's do something and free these girls and boys and save them from their state.

Jonathan: What's your story Joseph; how did you get into this in the first place? What motivated you?

Dr D'Sousa: A few things. One - I married a Dalit woman. Fell in love with a Dalit girl and married her. And just like so many upper caste urban kids in India I had no clue about this other India. So I understand when my urban Indians are abroad and say oh it's not there. Because in urban India you are shielded from this; you have to just go forty metres forty miles away from Bombay or Calcutta then you see what life is. My wife took me to her region and showed me this is how we live; this is what we are made. This is our life. Our lands have been taken, we are given these occupations from birth; we can't break out of it etc. So that was number one. The education from her and opening up a world for me which I'd never known. Two - about twelve years ago the Dalit leaders in the nation and us came together in the context of Christian persecution, and they came and told us this is not about you, the persecution in India, it's about us. We are turning to Jesus, we are turning to Christ because we believe that he is the answer for our slavery. So we want to ask you whether you want to stand with us, want to welcome us; whether you are willing to free our people. And I said yes. And that was a God moment in my life, when I began to see how the gospel has so much of justice in it. When people ask, you know, I'm going to get involved in their freedom struggle, if I'm a gospel worker how can I say no. You know that these are people who are spiritually imprisoned, socially imprisoned, economically imprisoned, imprisoned in everyway. And they say we want freedom; Jesus gives us freedom, and will you struggle with us for that freedom. Of course I had to say yes and then get involved in that.

Jonathan: Is it dangerous to stand up for them?

Dr D'Sousa: It's very dangerous. One of the huge questions that happened to me in this movement about a decade ago was related to this issue. One of the Dalit leaders sitting down with me; a group of them sitting and talking. And they said. You know we need to tell you something and they began to explain. You Christians have always done love and compassion, and you've come and given us food and help and education and everything. And we know you've done it because of the love of Christ; and that's why the Dalits are grateful that the missionaries came to India, showed us the love of Christ etc. but he said the day you said to us, and that was a few years before that, that I'm going to speak up, and I'm going to stand with you, renew that day that you were willing to die with us; because they won't attack you when you just show compassion. But when you speak up and you struggle when you expose this injustice that's going on they are going to go after you, the same way they've gone after us for two thousand years. Every time we have tried to revolt and break free they've killed and murdered and raped. Now they're going to go after you as well. But for us it tells us that you are willing to die for us just as Jesus Christ your Lord died for all humanity. So that aspect of taking that risk is always there.

Jonathan: Is there anything people reading this article can do?

Dr D'Sousa: One of the big campaigns that I carry on everywhere - we need voices. We need what I call Dalit advocates. So we have music bands who are, you know I just told you are Swichfoot or Caedmon's Call, whoever. We are going off to everybody in the media and saying, become a voice for the Dalits. So anybody who is reading this and wants to become a voice can become a voice for this people. And that becoming a voice means you start praying for those people. Go to our website, and see all you can do. Two - help us actually invest in a child and free a child or free a woman or free a girl and again go to the website and see how you can do that. And then if you want to come out and see for yourself. One of the great things that we do is we take groups out from all over the world. You know I can talk and they can see the movie, 'Slum Dog', and you can hear an Indian Singh here who doesn't want to admit it, oh it's not true India's not like that. Well you come to Dalit Mumbai. As soon as you get out of the airport I'll show you the world that's of the 'Slum Dog Millionaire'; I'll show you the world of the Dalit who is still in slavery and is crying out for freedom. So we encourage people to come out and see. And then of course there may be those youngsters who want to get involved in a cause for their life for Jesus and for the Kingdom of God, and I have to say this is humanity's last standing slave system. Oldest slavery system. There's no bigger justice cause that Christians in the world can get involved in. So if anybody feels oh I need to get involved and give my life to God, come and talk to us, we'll guide you.

Jonathan: Dr D'Sousa it's been inspiring taking to you; thanks very much for joining us on Cross Rhythms and we hope to see freedom for the Dalit people.