In this exclusive interview the Virginia trio's Toby McKeehan talked at length to Jan Willem Vink.

DC Talk

With the release of their new album, DC Talk have created a whirlwind of attention probably unprecedented by any Christian band in the history of CCM. 'Jesus Freak' is probably the most overtly Christian album ever to make America's mainstream pop album chart. But not only have the band made it to number 16 in 'Jesus Freak's initial week of release but DC Talk have flung aside all conventional wisdom about following up a hit (the band's previous album 'Free At Last' has sold in excess of a million copies) and released a grunge-influenced guitar rock album with little or no rapping light years away from the pop-rap of 'Free At Last'. In an exclusive interview with Cross Rhythms, Toby McKeehan spoke about deciding on the group's radical new direction.

"We had lots of discussions and lots of discussions and lots of discussions. We discussed things on the bus, on the tour, in the dressing room; we discussed things at home and in the studio. It was a working process. We were constantly working through what the next step would be, even as we were recording the record. I think we worked together better on this record than we have every worked together in the past. But I think this time, rather than doing songs that lean towards Kevin's style or songs that lean towards Mike's style or songs that lean towards Toby's style, I think for once we combined our art. I think together we created one piece of art."

The piece of art discussed, differs quite a lot from 'Free At Last'. What caused the trio to change so much? "We made a conscious effort not to rely on any formula from the past or not depend on anything that worked for us in the past. We decided to say, 'Let's throw away the formula and create something new. Let's create art from where we are right now and not based on any type of success or any feeling, or a need to follow up the past.' We decided not to do that. We decided, 'Let's create art. Where are we today? What's coming out of us?' What came out Is a more guitar oriented record and a more internal record, rather than dealing with the external issues, we dealt with the issues of the heart and we think if each individual's heart will change, we will see social change and hopefully spiritual change."

The musical changes on 'Jesus Freak' were probably the hardest for Toby himself. During their pop rap years he used to be the focal point of the band, doing all the raps. On 'Jesus Freak' the rap side has almost totally disappeared and Toby is even singing. Did the new approach scare Toby? "Absolutely! When you consider I did most all the rap side or the spoken word side the (new direction) was more of a risk for me, but it just comes down to us to go as a band together. We have to choose together and that's what we decided to do. Beyond that, I think, it's just, we're evolving as a band in this metamorphosis and we moved slightly away from the hip hop element."

It seems like Michael and Kevin have gotten a bigger role on 'Jesus Freak'. That's a statement Toby initially agrees with. "I think their role has increased..." But then he answers, "I don't want to say that. I think their role has always been one third of the group, just like I am one third of the group. It hasn't been one thing that evolves around me, around Toby for any chance. But I do think that the input was probably stronger from a writing standpoint on this record, which is something that we always wanted to do. It was just a matter of time, as I said, where we decided we wanted to break from the past, which was one of the reasons we considered it. It was more difficult for Michael and Kevin to write a DC Talk song as it was in the past, but when we decided to take a record as we know this time, kind of leaving the past behind, it was open game and we sort of recreated the wheel."

One of the main underlying themes on 'Jesus Freak' seems to be the fact that the band members want to follow Christ with an enormous passion, yet seem to be confronted all the time with the tensions in their own lives in achieving this. Toby agrees. "Yes, you are correct". I think sharing our struggles hopefully will be a stepping-stone for others or an encouragement for others. We, as three guys pursuing Christ, have by no means arrived in that pursuit of holiness. Sometimes we stumble sometimes we fall. We really wanted to dig deep and share our heart and share the reality of guys that are struggling with their faith and then trying to make art and perform it, but at the same time pursuing Christ. Sometimes you get up there and you want to make people know that you don't have all the answers, but you know the one that does have the answers."

The transparent approach was first used on the song "The Hard Way" on 'Free At Last'. Why did the band members want to be more open about their personal lives? "I think it came from a dose of reality. Realising that we didn't have it all together and in all our discipline we couldn't arrive at a standard that was acceptable by God or man. But learning that the only acceptance that we have from God is when we're dependent on him and realising our own weakness, that's when God's grace can move effectively in our lives. And of course he can control from our weakness. That's kind of a realisation we came to, trying to live that right life, in all our difficulties it doesn't seem to work. I know it's going to mature, as we mature, emotionally and physically and spiritually. And with all these things happening, the lyrics hopefully will grow. We'll come to a place that's much more transparent with much more honesty. It's not just a marketing tool; it's reality in our lives. Our art has met our personal lives, and in the midst of our personal lives, there's Jesus."

In their biography, Kevin commented, "Sometimes we bear up under the weight as missionaries and role models and sometimes we buckle under it and want to run."

Toby agrees that the expectations are sometimes bigger than life. "There is definitely a balance, because we know there is a responsibility that comes with the stage. But on the other hand we know that we can't live up to those expectations. Our calling is to find a balance there, realising that there is a responsibility, realising that the only place that I've got to be is Christ himself when it comes to spiritual things."

Balance. That also seems a word that is very descriptive of 'Jesus Freak'. Unlike many albums from an alternative rock quarter which focuses on their humanness, their questions and struggles, DC Talk remain very clear about their ultimate point of reference. By naming their album 'Jesus Freak', DC Talk show a militant boldness that is almost unprecedented by a CCM act of their level. Comments Toby: "Well, I think that's what our generation respects. If you come watering it down or kind of sidestepping the issue, I think our generation will pick that out. I think our generation respects bold lyrics with whatever you are trying to say. If you want to speak about Jesus, TALK about him, don't deliver him in some sugarcoated fashion that is out to fool me. I think our generation wants and respects straight ahead talk. That's what we try to deliver. Even in the internal songs, you hear boldness, even internally so to speak. We try to speak frankly about our faith even about the more personal and introspective."

Toby continues, "I think the most important thing is people realise that the very things that we sing about are the things that we struggle with. I think it's important for them to know, just simply that we don't have it all together and that we are crying out and at the same time we have a desire to share our faith with you because it is something that worked in our lives. Christ didn't say that when we ask him into our lives we wouldn't have any more problems at all. He promised us that we would have someone to take it to, and that was himself."

Taking a stand for their Christian faith is the focal point of DC Talk. An issue that has also always inspired them is the issue of racism. "Toby, Kevin and I became friends in college," says Michael. "So when we eventually formed DC Talk it was natural for us to use it as a platform to address problems of racism. Being on stage together makes a big statement in itself. We're up here as band members and as best friends. We call it 'living integration'. It's right there in front of people and it tends to have an impact that words alone would never have."

Toby agrees: "We just feel that there are very few groups in the world, not only musically but also politically, that can stand and be living integration. So yeah, it always boggles our minds as we do that integration with our group, Michael, Kevin and I, and we look around and see the racist that can seem to get along with people that judge based on skin colour. It just consistently boggles our minds and makes us think how natural it is for us to live in harmony. Why can't the rest of the world do that? Therefore we have a desire to share it and also, usually when you hear someone speaking out against racism, we're prejudiced. It's a white person standing behind a microphone or it's a black African American saying how to vote. Rarely do you see an integrated group standing up against racism. So we feel this is an obvious platform for us. And it's just living out our lyrics."

On 'Jesus Freak' Toby wrote the song "Coloured People" about the beauty of the different races. "The song 'Coloured People' is a celebration of skin colours," says Toby. "So often we use our skin colours to separate us or we look at them, at the differences, as negative instead of looking at them through the eyes of God. We kind of tried to do that in the song, where you are looking at the differences. It's a wonderful assortment and variety of colours that makes the world a much more beautiful place. I liken it to a flower arrangement where you have multiple colours of wild flowers that have grown up from the earth. If you combine them together to create a beautiful arrangement of different tone. It would be so easy to look at people like that, but we don't seem to get past our differences."

Living integration is a thing that Toby lives out on a day-to-day basis; he recently married Amanda, who originates from Jamaica. Say Toby, "We dated for six years before we got married, so based on that she was very aware of the calling and what we do with DC Talk. So it's not like there's this sudden change in my life to the point where DC Talk had to change position in my life. Well, I have a wife and my wife comes far before DC Talk. But at the same time, the long distance relationship and the relationship that grew while I was DC Talk make my wife very aware of the kind of commitment that it takes to be in a band like DC Talk. She's very supportive and has prayer groups. She has all the wives and girlfriends of our band and any acts that are opening for us and our crew coming to our house once a week to pray while we are on tour. I just found so much support in having a wife from the standpoint of DC Talk the ministry and also as a writer and as a person and there's a reality that speaks into your life and things that matter come to the surface when you get home."

One of the most unexpected voices to pop up on 'Jesus Freak' is Brennan Manning, the Catholic speaker and writer of such books as The Ragamuffin Gospel and Abba's Child. In a Cross Rhythms radio interview, Toby told Fran Finn how they came to know Brennan. "What led us to Brennan in the first place was his writings. All of us were affected to some degree by the books he's written... We did a retreat in the Smokey Mountains in Gattlenburg, Tennessee and Brennan was the guy we asked to come and spend time with Michael, Kev and I and our management, to share with us and try and get us refocused. In that time Brennan shared great truths with us and played a very hands on active role in our spiritual lives. We will always be appreciative of that. That quote that is on the record came from a time we got together after the retreat. It was a mini-retreat in New Orleans just for one day. We happened to be filming that day so we had it on DAT. He said that directly to us and because of that we decided to put it on the record."

Toby also told Fran Finn about DC Talk's surprising involvement with Billy Graham crusades. "We've been invited to do several crusades with Dr Graham, thus far just in North America but I believe they'll become more world wide as long as Dr Graham's health holds out. We were going to go to New Zealand with him but that seems to have gotten cancelled. For us it's the biggest privilege we could ever conceive. Dr Graham is a role model for all believers and all people who want to share their faith and he is a man that has truly stood above reproach. Mind you, our eyes should be focussed on Christ alone but it's still the type of thing that brings tears to your eyes when you get invited to do something with Dr Graham - a man who's stood for so long and been true to his calling."

So whose idea was it for DC Talk to work with Dr Graham? "The driving force between us getting together was Dr Billy Graham himself. It's not like he needs us to draw people out or anything like that. I think he's a forerunner and a visionary when it comes to reaching our generation. Now people wouldn't suspect that because he's not of our generation but he told us this, he calls us his 'translators', he says we're saying the same thing but we're speaking a language that our generation understands. Our generation puts a lot of weight in music, sometimes our morals and our social adjustments and our political views are based on music, and music is playing a great role in the lives of our generation and Dr Graham realises this and realises we want to point people to God. I think that was very open-minded of Dr Graham and his whole crusade team to let us go and mosh and do stage dives and rock 'n' roll at a Billy Graham crusade!"

Another major move for DC Talk has been the release of the 'Free At Last' documentary into cinemas throughout America. Toby explained in Release magazine how the group hadn't started out with the intention of making a film. "We only intended to shoot a long form video, but one thing led to another and it sort of took on a life of its own. After a certain point the director and our manager just pulled us aside and said, 'Listen, this isn't a video you are making, this is going to be a film.'"

'Free At Last', bearing the same title as DC Talk's 1992 platinum-selling album, gives a captivating look, both onstage and behind-the-scenes, at the ups and downs of a major concert tour. Mixing high energy live concert footage, one-on-one interviews with Toby, Mike and Kevin and plenty of candid moments woven throughout, the film gives a real sense of the personalities that drive the band and of the dynamic that exists among them as well.

"The tensions that begin to surface after 30 days on a bus together weren't hidden from the cameras," said Michael Tait. "Sometimes there's a real struggle and a real test of friendship and commitment that goes on between the three of us. That rub of relationships is something that we wanted the film to capture. We have the fun times, and the close times, and the times when we're on our faces in prayer together, but we have our share of difficult times too. The film gives a taste of all of that."

"We lived with those cameras for so long that we eventually forgot they were there," said Kevin Smith. "I think the end result is something that will show people how much like them we really are. Too often, because we're in the spotlight performing, people form a false picture of us and think that our walk with God is perfect when it's not. We struggle just like everyone else who tries to live out the truth."

"It's probably a good thing," Toby added, "that we weren't the ones directing the film, because we would have been tempted to craft it in such a way as to woo and impress an audience. It wouldn't have been vulnerable. By allowing other people to come into our lives with cameras, that vulnerability was captured."

None of which is to give the impression that the film is hopelessly mired in the dark side of the force. 'Free At Last' (the movie) captures the lighter moments of a DC Talk. Tour as well - the horseplay on the tour bus, the days of R&R (that's "rest and relaxation" for those of you who can't help but think "rock and roll"), night time roaming in the streets of various cities, the brotherly camaraderie that exists among the three young men and the spiritual intensity and commitment that they share. Some segments even tiptoe briefly across the border of poignancy: Mike visiting his brother in prison, Kevin sharing the weighty emotions related to his childhood adoption, Toby ruminating on the subject of racism. And then, to top it all off, there's the concert footage. The colourful chaos of DC Talk in live performance gives the film an upbeat vibrancy reminiscent of...well, reminiscent of a DC Talk record.

Accountability is a top priority for the band. They even have a band pastor who travels with them on the road. "I think God has blessed us in making us three versus one," Toby told me. "We do keep each other accountable. We do speak truth in each other's lives. Because we have that platform to speak to each other. And then we brought the pastor out. That's kind of a guy who consistently challenges us and points us to the Father in difficult as well as in the great times, as well as in the successful times. He's much more than a pastor, he's our friend and our brother. We're thankful that there are three of us, and not just one of us, as we have seen in Christian music that can be tough when everybody is talking about you and pointing to you. Just the attention and money that's made and the fame can be overwhelming to a person, without having someone that can speak directly into their lives."

We discuss the current success of DC Talk in the mainstream media. Toby is very happy with the changes that took place in the Christian music scene. "It has been a welcome change," comments Toby. "It has even changed speculations that we made a year ago. I mean, MTV has picked up the 'Jesus Freak' video in January. We've seen national press that we've never seen before, including USA Today and Entertainment Weekly, although we dabbled before with national press, it seems like this album has found acceptance on a worldwide level, mainstream and Christian. And that has to do a lot with the business changes that have been made. EMI, a worldwide company, has bought our distributor. So we have distribution on the Christian and mainstream market. So for us that dream is coming true, without necessarily having to change labels. Based on business, but hopefully based on a record that is challenging and palatable for the whole world."

As DC Talk sing 'I throw myself for mercy for I am the chief of sinners/Daily, taking up my cross has brought it's share of splinters,' they are referring to the persecution a Christian artist also has to face. "I think sometimes, sometimes even in pursuit of holiness, there's the persecution that comes in society," muses Toby. "The press that rails you for speaking out boldly because of your faith in Christ, the record companies that tell you that this thing is old fashioned and if we would change our lyrics a bit we'd have more success. It states in the Bible that when you face persecution count it a blessing, because it will come. I think those are the splinters we are talking about. From time to time, in our pursuit of holiness we get persecuted."

Toby concludes," While we have definitely grown and changed as artists, our reason for existence remains the same: to be musical missionaries to a lost generation -not to cram our views down their throats, but to share our faith because it has worked in our lives. Our goal has always been to create art that would lead people to God. And because we are pursuers of Christ that will come out in our music."